Curse

yum · Nov 22, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

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Originally Posted by Azrael the Needle

stuff

What?...

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Nice laserlight >.>
But sin's are flexible, we are somewhat similar to our Other dexterous relatives, the ranger.
The assassin can do things because the use of High Critical Strikes lets him do gimmick builds like crit scythe/hammer/spear/bow.
Like the ranger can do expertised scythe/hammer/spear etc.
The assassin can play as a runner, so can the ranger
The assassin can snare decently, so can the ranger.
The assassin can shutdown melee, so can the ranger
The assassin can shutdown Magic, so can the ranger >.>
Although other classes can do the same >.> Sin's are about as flexible as rangers.

Sin runner = bad.
Why do I need a sin with siphon speed, while a cripshot ranger can do WAY better and have WAY more utilities.
Sin can shutdown melee, true. SS is the only thing worthy.
Sin can shutdown magic? You mean t3h leet SOS? or the disrupting stuff? Rite, staying in the other team's backline to drain the energy of your backline, nice.

Ranger can do all of those stuff above wonderfully + gank + great survivability.

Can you give me a sin build that has the same utility as the cripshot build? No rite?
Don't compare assasins with rangers. In no way can sin reach that level.

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Its just in pvp Why be Flexible and play different roles.
When you can just have someone dead on the floor >.>

Oh ye. Let's run 8 assasins/warriors!!!!!

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To the OP; the class isn't weak. HotO got nerfed, so what? We still have the highest DPS in the game. We still have the old flexibility of taking on other professions as our own (crit sythe, axe, spear, barrage) and we can still use criticals to our advantage. How can you possibly say we're a weak class when the class has so many advantages over others?

I lol'ed.

Shuuda · Nov 22, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

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Originally Posted by Hermos

Because, my dear fellow, assassins can do them all at the same time. Golden Fox Strike, Wild strike, Assault enchantments, impale (off the top of my head) provides Unblockable +damage (ranger), stance removal (warror), enchantment removal (necromancer/mesmer) and earth damage and deep wound (ele/warrior).

LOLZ, got that out of my system. (Yes we are talking about PvP here since PvE can be done even with the most sub bar skills)

1) I assume you mean Shattering Assault, you don't even know the difference heh.

2) That build is only really good for offence. Which in most cases, you'd be better off with an Axe Warrior with Rending touch.

3) Rangers don't exist for unblockable damage lolcakes, any damage a ranger can do could be done better by a Paragon (Since Paras have deep wound) A good rangers strength lies in things like Crippling shot, D shot, Apply poison, Utility and distruption.

4) The main issue most people have with sins is that they take little skills to play:

What skill does it take to play an SP sin, or even the build you posted. Erm... makes sure your not blind, then press 1,2,3,4,5 in order.

Turtle222 · Nov 22, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

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Originally Posted by Shuuda

What skill does it take to play an SP sin, or even the build you posted. Erm... makes sure your not blind, then press 1,2,3,4,5 in order.

:\ guild wars is a team game.

im more afraid of a sin twosome coming at me, than a ranger twosome or a warrior twosome...so perhaps the skill is not in the buttons you press, but the time and person in which to utilise your skills against.

yum · Nov 22, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

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Originally Posted by Turtle222

:\ guild wars is a team game.

im more afraid of a sin twosome coming at me, than a ranger twosome or a warrior twosome....

Apparently, you haven't seen a good ranger or a good warrior.

I hate rangers ( not those idiots who sit on a monk and spam d-shot every 10 and savage every 5)

ensoriki · Nov 23, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I rather 2 sins attacking me to be honest >.>

Two rangers is really...really....really annoying.

>.>

LaserLight · Nov 23, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

In response to intelligent posters such as Moriz and LightningHell (and doing my best to ignore the regrettably inevitable snipe-spam between many others):

First of all, my issue is not that Assassins aren't perfectly balanced. I'm aware of that, though I also dislike the fact that 'balanced' means a character is unable to die in any sort of organized competition until every single character on that player's team is completely out of all resources. Pardon me for enjoying the ability to actually drop someone sooner than twenty minutes in.

Anyways. No, I know that the so-called 'instagib' likely shouldn't have been introduced - though even that I find trouble agreeing with. After all, why should it be a guarantee in this game that you can't die in a hurry? Perhaps you're meant to actually take measures to prevent that sort of quick death, rather than simply crying foul and trying to force ArenaNet to destroy the class.

And make no mistake about it, that's what you're shooting for here. You are asking for the complete destruction of the Assassin as a viable profession. it doesn't matter if the Assassin can do "some" damage. It doesn't matter if the Assassin can do "a lot" of damage. Anything other than fresh-to-dead and nobody wants anything to do with it. Doesn't matter if the Assassin can strike out ninety percent of a target's health, so that one spell from a friendly Elementalist or a single good whack with an axe can finish the job. Fresh to dead, or find a new job. Except...wait. Isn't fresh to dead what we're supposed to be getting rid of?

People have already stated that nothing the Assassin does, save for that overpowering damage, is worth anything more than a dead rat. Shadow Arts, as an attribute line, has been completely discarded for its lack of damaging ability, and only those Deadly Arts skills which can directly contribute to slaying a foe are utilized. Dagger Mastery and even Critical Strikes are just about out too, because Dagger/Crit can't fully destroy an enemy anymore.

Tell me, people - and I'm not talking to the idiots here.

Why should Assassin players suffer the destruction of their class, the complete devaluing of the hundreds of hours and platinum they've sunk into their character, simply because the existence of the Assassin partially devalues other characters? And not even by that much, judging by the complete lack of Assassins in any field of play higher than Alliance Battle. Every GvG I've observed recently has been devoid of even /A, and trust me. I've looked.

You want the Assassin's ability to fresh-to-dead kill an enemy destroyed. Tell me...what do we get in return? Which of our shortcomings do we get to eliminate, or what ability to we get in return for giving up on the very essence of an Assassin? It had better be damn good, I tell you - you're wanting us to give up a huge advantage, our only major advantage. Yes, we have others - hell, Dash alone is worth going /A - but seriously...where's the trade-off?

if you can't figure out a damn good reason for revoking our ability to do the one thing we were designed to do, and a damn good way of making it up to us...heh, then perhaps you don't have the right to tell us that we need to give up our Assassins because you Warrior-types feel infringed upon, and because the spellcasters don't like having to watch what they're doing, ne?

Seriously...turnabout's fair play. If you want to render my investment of time and effort worthless, destroy my class without compensating me for it...what of yours do I get to destroy, hm?

Stormlord Alex · Nov 23, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

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Originally Posted by LaserLight

You want the Assassin's ability to fresh-to-dead kill an enemy destroyed. Tell me...what do we get in return?

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Originally Posted by Me

IMO, they should buff lead-offhand-dual combos so they can actually do something useful - I'm talking pressure on par with other physicals - then go and buff stuff like Siphon Strength, effectively turning the assassin into a physical damage dealer that replaces brute force tactics of the Derv or hardiness of the Warrior with shutdown options instead, allowing flexibility of the 3 classes as frontliners, depending on what a team needs.

You get to be a viable character that can do something useful, and isn't a skill-free gimmick.

And if you don't like that, well... tough. That's just how GW is.

LightningHell · Nov 23, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

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Originally Posted by ensoriki

You really like to nitpick don't you.

By flexability I meant Assassins can do other gimmick builds (no not instagib, I mean gimmick as in using a weapon not of your profession =P thats flexible).

And thus, assassins are inflexible. You proved my point.

Also, I fail to see how crit strike weapon is better than one of its original profession using it.

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Now your nit picking on Instagib >.>
Overall and one trait is a bit different >.>
Not all of the assassin skills are really good for "instagib"
Thus overall, there particularily weak.
However there are a some skill synergies that lead to the instagib you are talking about.

However, it hardly matters that the other skills are subpar. Every professions has their subpar skills.

Overall, the sin can put is bar to any use. Any profession can do that, and many probably better than the 'sin. The "instagib via skill chaining" is just one particularly distasteful trait that only the sin has.

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Stop nitpicking >.>

I don't have time to write a thesis, thus I'm using the second best and pointing out all the invalid points in your argument.

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Originally Posted by LaserLight

Anyways. No, I know that the so-called 'instagib' likely shouldn't have been introduced - though even that I find trouble agreeing with. After all, why should it be a guarantee in this game that you can't die in a hurry? Perhaps you're meant to actually take measures to prevent that sort of quick death, rather than simply crying foul and trying to force ArenaNet to destroy the class.

The Assassin has to smash his keyboard with his head.

The Assassin'd has to play perfectly, as well as his/her team.

No, I'm not saying that death in a hurry isn't good - what are coordinated spikes, and warrior skill chains for? - but a character that can do that consistently with a player without any modicum of skill...is just a bad idea.

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And make no mistake about it, that's what you're shooting for here. You are asking for the complete destruction of the Assassin as a viable profession. it doesn't matter if the Assassin can do "some" damage. It doesn't matter if the Assassin can do "a lot" of damage. Anything other than fresh-to-dead and nobody wants anything to do with it. Doesn't matter if the Assassin can strike out ninety percent of a target's health, so that one spell from a friendly Elementalist or a single good whack with an axe can finish the job. Fresh to dead, or find a new job. Except...wait. Isn't fresh to dead what we're supposed to be getting rid of?

No, it's just the skill-less fresh-to-dead we're trying to get rid of.

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People have already stated that nothing the Assassin does, save for that overpowering damage, is worth anything more than a dead rat. Shadow Arts, as an attribute line, has been completely discarded for its lack of damaging ability, and only those Deadly Arts skills which can directly contribute to slaying a foe are utilized. Dagger Mastery and even Critical Strikes are just about out too, because Dagger/Crit can't fully destroy an enemy anymore.

Partially agree. There is the gimmick Paradox sin.

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Why should Assassin players suffer the destruction of their class, the complete devaluing of the hundreds of hours and platinum they've sunk into their character, simply because the existence of the Assassin partially devalues other characters? And not even by that much, judging by the complete lack of Assassins in any field of play higher than Alliance Battle. Every GvG I've observed recently has been devoid of even /A, and trust me. I've looked.

You want the Assassin's ability to fresh-to-dead kill an enemy destroyed. Tell me...what do we get in return? Which of our shortcomings do we get to eliminate, or what ability to we get in return for giving up on the very essence of an Assassin? It had better be damn good, I tell you - you're wanting us to give up a huge advantage, our only major advantage. Yes, we have others - hell, Dash alone is worth going /A - but seriously...where's the trade-off?

We argue that Assassins should have moderately powerful, quick recharging but not overpowering combos, while being a mainly utility character.

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if you can't figure out a damn good reason for revoking our ability to do the one thing we were designed to do, and a damn good way of making it up to us...heh, then perhaps you don't have the right to tell us that we need to give up our Assassins because you Warrior-types feel infringed upon, and because the spellcasters don't like having to watch what they're doing, ne?

We gave you a reason already. The Assassin allows an instagib character that takes an absolute minimum of skill to use. For example, I'm primarily a backline player. You could probably stick me in a 'sin and expect me to play it as well as any other.

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Seriously...turnabout's fair play. If you want to render my investment of time and effort worthless, destroy my class without compensating me for it...what of yours do I get to destroy, hm?

What about necromancers?

The Assassin's problem now is the same as it is a year before. Instagib combo.

Old argument.

And that's to say that sins still have instagib.

LaserLight · Nov 23, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

I'm perfectly fine with that concept, Alex - as I thought I made clear. If leads and the vast majority of off-hands weren't total bunk, I'd use them, but seriously - I'd have to be a total ignoramus to bother with the current crop of leads and offs. As for buffing the variety of nasty shit an Assassin can do, good God yes. I would dearly adore being able to have that variety of disruption options when I play Assassin - much as I enjoy the one-shot burial technique, I wouldn't mind being able to switch my emphasis every once in a while. And really, that shot about my skill was uncalled for. If you feel that I'm just another idiot wanting to preserve my cheapness, well...that's yer issue, no?

Stormlord Alex · Nov 23, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

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Originally Posted by LaserLight

And really, that shot about my skill was uncalled for. If you feel that I'm just another idiot wanting to preserve my cheapness, well...that's yer issue, no?

Ooh, dear.
It was directed at the gimmicky crap that Assassins are on - 1234567 SP spikes, and SoJ sins - and not at you.

moriz · Nov 23, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

how sins should be balanced? if you really want to know what i think... here's the condensed version:

offhands: given additional function OUTSIDE of a combo. for example - falling spider.

off-hand attack:
if you strike a knocked down foe, you inflict poison for x seconds and strike for +xdamage. if you strike a moving foe, you do no damage but target foe is knocked down. all your other off-hand attacks are disabled for 8 seconds.

all lead attacks and dual attacks: all other lead and duals are disabled for 8 seconds.

i'm never the most effective communicator, but what i'm trying to do is to have off-hand attacks do something outside of a chain to increase the utility of assassin builds. the "disable all other" condition is primarily to dissuade the offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chains we've been seeing, as well as trying to keep the length of the chains down.

each offhand can have a different effect. here i used falling spider and gave it a bull's strike effect without the damage. other offhands can inflict poison, bleeding, cripple, +energy, +hp etc. the point is trying to have the assassin be more similar to the warrior in terms of utility, and not just some finger twitch spiker.

this will allow sins to lose the instagib ability and still be viable characters, because they can finally contribute something other than a frontloaded 560+ damage spike. in fact, sins can take 1 lead, 1 dual, and 2+ offhands just for the utility they can provide.

unfortunately, the effort it takes to go into every offhand and make it do something outside of a combo is a monumental task. doing this will balance the profession, but most likely won't happen.

MercenaryK · Nov 23, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

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Originally Posted by moriz

how sins should be balanced? if you really want to know what i think... here's the condensed version:

offhands: given additional function OUTSIDE of a combo. for example - falling spider.

off-hand attack:
if you strike a knocked down foe, you inflict poison for x seconds and strike for +xdamage. if you strike a moving foe, you do no damage but target foe is knocked down. all your other off-hand attacks are disabled for 8 seconds.

all lead attacks and dual attacks: all other lead and duals are disabled for 8 seconds.

i'm never the most effective communicator, but what i'm trying to do is to have off-hand attacks do something outside of a chain to increase the utility of assassin builds. the "disable all other" condition is primarily to dissuade the offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chains we've been seeing, as well as trying to keep the length of the chains down.

each offhand can have a different effect. here i used falling spider and gave it a bull's strike effect without the damage. other offhands can inflict poison, bleeding, cripple, +energy, +hp etc. the point is trying to have the assassin be more similar to the warrior in terms of utility, and not just some finger twitch spiker.

this will allow sins to lose the instagib ability and still be viable characters, because they can finally contribute something other than a frontloaded 560+ damage spike. in fact, sins can take 1 lead, 1 dual, and 2+ offhands just for the utility they can provide.

unfortunately, the effort it takes to go into every offhand and make it do something outside of a combo is a monumental task. doing this will balance the profession, but most likely won't happen.

I really like that idea. Since the uproar of the Sin changes recently I've spent just a little time, probably not enough, to play around with Sin skills and try to make different combos.

I find my self resorting back to GPS > TF > FS > BoS as that's the most damaging combo I can do, compared to the L-O-Ds that I've tried, there isn't enough damage compared to a O-D-O-D that it's not ideal to take anything other than a O-D-O-D. I'd like to see Sins break out of that chain as it's often a fragile combo in exchange for power. If anything the L-O-D offers is the ability to be spammed with little risks of failure, i.e. not satisfying conditions.

GFS > WS > DB is a 4-4-2 recharge, and it's less damage but nearly guaranteed to follow through. Thinking out-loud as I type, but what you've said is a great idea. Equal benefits to using a L-O-D vs O-D-O-D, or more reasons to use L-O-D over O-D-O-D. I've learned that a Sin can either kill a slightly weakened foe or nearly kill a foe to where not much is needed to finish them off.

LightningHell · Nov 23, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

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Originally Posted by MercenaryK

GFS > WS > DB is a 4-4-2 recharge, and it's less damage but nearly guaranteed to follow through. Thinking out-loud as I type, but what you've said is a great idea. Equal benefits to using a L-O-D vs O-D-O-D, or more reasons to use L-O-D over O-D-O-D. I've learned that a Sin can either kill a slightly weakened foe or nearly kill a foe to where not much is needed to finish them off.

The problem would be in finding a "slightly weakened foe" (which isn't really "slightly") that you can kill presently with an L-O-D chain that's unprotted, and "nearly killing a foe" doesn't cut it, while Assassin support is pretty limited and gimmicky. And the fact that O-D-O-D can kill with much more efficiency and consistency. That's the state now, anyway.

X Cytherea X · Nov 23, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

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intelligent posters such as Moriz and LightningHell

i lold irl

instagib is needed for the game to not be boring. i wanna see bodies dropping! anywho, ive got a new flail sin that rapes face.

yum · Nov 23, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

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Originally Posted by LaserLight

Why should Assassin players suffer the destruction of their class, the complete devaluing of the hundreds of hours and platinum they've sunk into their character, simply because the existence of the Assassin partially devalues other characters? And not even by that much, judging by the complete lack of Assassins in any field of play higher than Alliance Battle. Every GvG I've observed recently has been devoid of even /A, and trust me. I've looked.

You've answered it for your self. Actually no, besides the 1234567 and amo thingy at which they are too good, assasins are overshadowed by other classes in every other role.

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Anyways. No, I know that the so-called 'instagib' likely shouldn't have been introduced - though even that I find trouble agreeing with. After all, why should it be a guarantee in this game that you can't die in a hurry? Perhaps you're meant to actually take measures to prevent that sort of quick death, rather than simply crying foul and trying to force ArenaNet to destroy the class.

You cant realize why then you are bad.

Clarissa F · Nov 23, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

nice. I came to read a sin debate, and I see a flame fest. I'm on Guru, so why do I expect more? At least Lightning tries to argue a point intelligently. Moriz? Each post degenerates till you end at, "you are stupid because....you are stupid." Good job. Not that the insults that "stimulated" you are any better.

As far as instagib. They can't nerf the sin too much, just because of pve, which is where GW's money is. If it weren't, they wouldn't be using the full MMO model for GW2. Hell, a halfway decent Mesmer can kill of a sin. something as easy as Empathy or Clumsiness kills him off. They are not overpowered.

moriz · Nov 23, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

everyone who wants to read something meaningful, please head this way: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10223966

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

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Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

oohh, struck a nerve, did i? lol seriously, all you do is try to sound intelligent and fail, and then try to sound hostile and fail at that too.

you really need to expand your vocabulary. or get laid. the latter is near impossible tho.

X Cytherea X you have currently implied that your vocabulary is outstanding, and that you have a firm grasp of the english language. As literate people are educated people, you can then prove to us all how being laid will help anyone.
You cannot actually prove it as its a superficial argument, keep to the facts instead of pulling absurd statements out of your ass.
If you think being laid, makes people smarter or more mature I suggest you get laid a thousand times as you need the maturity boost probably as much as I.

Moriz, the stupidity comments are unneeded, the old-fashioned Posting of a face palm image will do. Also if you want to be more efficient, feel free to add kittens, to back up your arguments.

Div · Nov 24, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I can't believe I read through that wall of text. Sins are a bad concept to begin with. If Anet was smarter and wanted an Asian themed character, a samurai with two-handed swords (kinda like a mix between warrior sword utility and hammer warrior damage/defense) would've been better. End of story.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

I can't believe I read through that wall of text. Sins are a bad concept to begin with. If Anet was smarter and wanted an Asian themed character, a samurai with two-handed swords (kinda like a mix between warrior sword utility and hammer warrior damage/defense) would've been better. End of story.

And what if they made Samurais attacks follow a chain

And they can Dual attack with their blades.

= Doesn't matter what class they implement >.>, if they implement it wrong.